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wilderthanWhen someone on the internet says something you don't like -- whether it be something prejudiced or discriminatory in some way, or whether it just disses your favourite tv show -- you probably make the assumption that they are willing and able to participate in a discussion about it/defend themselves. You probably don't even consciously think about it: they said something wrong, and they should be ready to stand by their words.
Thinking about it over the last few months, I've come to the conclusion that there's a kind of ableism inherent in this kind of conversation. Often, in the throes of an argument, people will get hurt by the person they're talking to replying to someone else and not them, or going away from the computer for a while, or freezing the threads or disabling comments, or anything they feel that involves ignoring them. And maybe sometimes they're right. Sometimes the person is consciously ignoring them for no better reason than that they feel like it. I don't want to get into a conversation about whether or not that is okay. That's not what I'm trying to talk about.
For the past six months, I've been dealing with steadily escalating anxiety. I've seen a counsellor, I've had to go home from university in the middle of term much more than I'd really like, I've had to do meditation and change my sleeping patterns and stop doing various things that increased my anxiety. And through that I've learnt what it's like to have limited spoons (read up on spoon theory here). This is probably temporary, for me, admittedly, but still, I've had a very clear taste of what it's like.
Say I post something -- a review to a book, perhaps -- and you don't like something I said in it, for whatever reason. So you want to make me understand your point of view. To a certain extent, this is fine, but when you start making it into an argument, my ability to deal with it sharply drops. I will spend the entire day flinching and feeling physically ill every time I receive an email. I will not want to eat. I will not want to leave my bedroom, let alone my house.
And yet internet ettiquette as it stands won't allow me to walk away. I must leave my space open for all comers, because heaven forbid I shut down the discussion. My mental health is seen as an excuse: I shouldn't have said what I did if I wasn't going to back it up. I should have predicted that someone would disagree. There's always someone to disagree, after all.
The discussion is more important than me being able to eat, sleep, and even breathe properly.
Now, you may disagree, but I think there's something wrong with that. I should be allowed to control my own space. I shouldn't have to be totally silent because someone might someday disagree with me, and I probably wouldn't be able to handle it (unless I was having a good day).
If I freeze threads, or disable all comments, or lock a post, it doesn't actually stop the wider discussion. This is the internet: you can make a post of your own, in your own space, to talk about whatever it was. You can hunt down the people who made comments you were interested in and talk to them yourself, in their space. You can take screencaps or copy/paste from my post, or from comment notifications left in your inbox, or just paraphrase from memory. All of these things are possible for you, and it wouldn't be at the cost of my mental health.
I'm not the only one on the internet who isn't always able to deal with you. A lot of people are physically disabled, and might have trouble staying at the keyboard for long periods of time, or dealing with reading from the screen for long periods of time, or maybe they're dealing with having to read via a screenreader, which I imagine would be slower than reading straight from the screen for yourself. They've spent the entire day dealing with their disability: maybe they're just too damn tired to deal with you. And it won't be any better tomorrow, or the day after, or the day after that.
And that should be okay. I'm not saying "don't engage with anyone on the internet, ever, for any reason". I'm saying "don't assume that whoever you engage with is going to be able to keep up with this". If I'm trying to talk to someone about their racist behaviour, and they tell me that they're sorry, but they don't have the ability to deal with this discussion right now, I plan to accept that. The chance that they're just making an excuse is, for me, less important than the potential that they're telling the truth. Maybe they're feeling as badly as I am.
It may read like derailing to you, bringing up my disability and acting as though it's more important than whatever we're discussing. That isn't the rationale at all. It's not that my disability is more important, or that I'm expecting pity or using it to excuse my faults. All I'm saying is that I am not able to discuss this further right now. And I'm not the only one. It's not even the same magnitude of problem for me as it is for other people.
It is my privilege, in fact, to be relatively abled. When dealing with people on the internet who do not share that privilege, I have to understand that this isn't a level playing field. Whatever they've said, it can't be worth their mental and physical health. There'll be plenty of other times and ways to talk to them about whatever it is you disagree about. You don't have to do it now, or in the way that has proved difficult for them.
I can't force anyone to do this, or even to agree with me, but this is what I will promise: if you tell me you're not able to continue talking to me, I will back off. I may post about it in my own space, or ask you if we can talk about it at some later date, when you feel capable, but I will not prioritise whatever it is we're discussing over your health. Don't feel that you owe me a response other than, "I'm sorry, I'm not able to discuss this right now". If I need to keep talking about it, I can bring it to my own space.
To state this up front: I don't have the energy right now. For now, comments are on, but depending on what happens in the next few days, I might have to screen or disable them. I will try my damnedest not to lock this post. Feel free to link it around, but I would appreciate it if you'd try not to lead drama and hostility to my door (i.e. don't post it to any notoriously wanky comms).
Crossposted to LJ here. Comments are currently open on both entries.
Thinking about it over the last few months, I've come to the conclusion that there's a kind of ableism inherent in this kind of conversation. Often, in the throes of an argument, people will get hurt by the person they're talking to replying to someone else and not them, or going away from the computer for a while, or freezing the threads or disabling comments, or anything they feel that involves ignoring them. And maybe sometimes they're right. Sometimes the person is consciously ignoring them for no better reason than that they feel like it. I don't want to get into a conversation about whether or not that is okay. That's not what I'm trying to talk about.
For the past six months, I've been dealing with steadily escalating anxiety. I've seen a counsellor, I've had to go home from university in the middle of term much more than I'd really like, I've had to do meditation and change my sleeping patterns and stop doing various things that increased my anxiety. And through that I've learnt what it's like to have limited spoons (read up on spoon theory here). This is probably temporary, for me, admittedly, but still, I've had a very clear taste of what it's like.
Say I post something -- a review to a book, perhaps -- and you don't like something I said in it, for whatever reason. So you want to make me understand your point of view. To a certain extent, this is fine, but when you start making it into an argument, my ability to deal with it sharply drops. I will spend the entire day flinching and feeling physically ill every time I receive an email. I will not want to eat. I will not want to leave my bedroom, let alone my house.
And yet internet ettiquette as it stands won't allow me to walk away. I must leave my space open for all comers, because heaven forbid I shut down the discussion. My mental health is seen as an excuse: I shouldn't have said what I did if I wasn't going to back it up. I should have predicted that someone would disagree. There's always someone to disagree, after all.
The discussion is more important than me being able to eat, sleep, and even breathe properly.
Now, you may disagree, but I think there's something wrong with that. I should be allowed to control my own space. I shouldn't have to be totally silent because someone might someday disagree with me, and I probably wouldn't be able to handle it (unless I was having a good day).
If I freeze threads, or disable all comments, or lock a post, it doesn't actually stop the wider discussion. This is the internet: you can make a post of your own, in your own space, to talk about whatever it was. You can hunt down the people who made comments you were interested in and talk to them yourself, in their space. You can take screencaps or copy/paste from my post, or from comment notifications left in your inbox, or just paraphrase from memory. All of these things are possible for you, and it wouldn't be at the cost of my mental health.
I'm not the only one on the internet who isn't always able to deal with you. A lot of people are physically disabled, and might have trouble staying at the keyboard for long periods of time, or dealing with reading from the screen for long periods of time, or maybe they're dealing with having to read via a screenreader, which I imagine would be slower than reading straight from the screen for yourself. They've spent the entire day dealing with their disability: maybe they're just too damn tired to deal with you. And it won't be any better tomorrow, or the day after, or the day after that.
And that should be okay. I'm not saying "don't engage with anyone on the internet, ever, for any reason". I'm saying "don't assume that whoever you engage with is going to be able to keep up with this". If I'm trying to talk to someone about their racist behaviour, and they tell me that they're sorry, but they don't have the ability to deal with this discussion right now, I plan to accept that. The chance that they're just making an excuse is, for me, less important than the potential that they're telling the truth. Maybe they're feeling as badly as I am.
It may read like derailing to you, bringing up my disability and acting as though it's more important than whatever we're discussing. That isn't the rationale at all. It's not that my disability is more important, or that I'm expecting pity or using it to excuse my faults. All I'm saying is that I am not able to discuss this further right now. And I'm not the only one. It's not even the same magnitude of problem for me as it is for other people.
It is my privilege, in fact, to be relatively abled. When dealing with people on the internet who do not share that privilege, I have to understand that this isn't a level playing field. Whatever they've said, it can't be worth their mental and physical health. There'll be plenty of other times and ways to talk to them about whatever it is you disagree about. You don't have to do it now, or in the way that has proved difficult for them.
I can't force anyone to do this, or even to agree with me, but this is what I will promise: if you tell me you're not able to continue talking to me, I will back off. I may post about it in my own space, or ask you if we can talk about it at some later date, when you feel capable, but I will not prioritise whatever it is we're discussing over your health. Don't feel that you owe me a response other than, "I'm sorry, I'm not able to discuss this right now". If I need to keep talking about it, I can bring it to my own space.
To state this up front: I don't have the energy right now. For now, comments are on, but depending on what happens in the next few days, I might have to screen or disable them. I will try my damnedest not to lock this post. Feel free to link it around, but I would appreciate it if you'd try not to lead drama and hostility to my door (i.e. don't post it to any notoriously wanky comms).
Crossposted to LJ here. Comments are currently open on both entries.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-02 09:13 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-02 09:35 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-04 01:07 am (UTC)because someone might someday disagree with me, and I probably wouldn't be able to handle it (unless I was having a good day).
This. Thank you so much for writing this. Thank you thank you thank you.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-04 01:04 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-03 03:53 am (UTC)Arguments hike up my anxiety greatly as well.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-03 09:56 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-03 10:34 am (UTC)I'd say more, but I'm kinda half asleep at the moment.
-hugs-
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-03 10:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-03 08:14 pm (UTC)Thank you for writing this. Its so true and necessary and often forgotten.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-03 08:54 pm (UTC)I've seen some very bad reactions to people locking posts and stuff like that, basically saying how dare they disrupt my conversation?!! -- and it really annoys me, because most people -- most of these same people -- wouldn't expect the same level of tolerance offline. If they saw someone having a panic attack because of what they said, I doubt their reaction would be to ignore that person's health entirely (some people would, of course, but I think it would be a minority). And it's not true, either: you can always take the conversation to a different space.
(Reposted because I can't edit, to correct language use.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-04 12:06 am (UTC)Conversations can go to another space, or they can be suspended to let everything cool. Sometimes, though, they just have to end. It's not at all fair to insist that someone continue a conversation/debate/discussion far past their comfort point just because the other person is done, yet they do. :/
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-04 12:42 am (UTC)I think more often than not they should be suspended to let everything cool, myself, but the argument against someone withdrawing from an argument is so often, "But you're shutting down an important debate!" -- to which my answer is, "Go hold that debate on your own space and in your own time, then, not mine." That isn't really relevant for cases where it's one-on-one personal harassment, though; I get that, and my feelings on allowing people to retreat for their own mental health remain the same no matter what the situation is.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 01:32 am (UTC)I've had this happen to me offline. I wanted to leave the room and they wouldn't let me and I ended up freaking out in a physical manner and then they blamed me when I said I felt like I was trapped because they claimed I was free to go when I wanted to. Except they didn't let me go when I DID want to go. And these people claimed that they were my friends. Well, they're ex-friends now and I'm still having nightmares about them occasionally.
Oh and they compared me to a diseased animal because of the whole thing. Yeah, compare the girl with a mental illness with a rabid animal who needs to be put down.
Yeah, I'm sorta bitter, but if I don't at least talk about it, then in a way, I'd be allowing them to win. Because I am scared to talk about it where others can see it and I don't want to be afraid of them anymore.
(And sorry for so many edits on this comment - I just kinda...I have issues.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 08:30 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 09:03 am (UTC)It's a good thing to talk about it, because if you don't, nobody will know that this kind of thing is a problem -- for you, or more generally. You're brave to talk about it.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 04:27 pm (UTC)All I know is that I'm glad I'm in Pennsylvania and that she's in Arizona. And screw it if she sees this, which I doubt. She's been scared off the internet apparently.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-03 10:41 pm (UTC)You phrased this beautifully.
I deal with anxiety by obsessing on finishing things. When there's the current explosion of thoughts and conversations (and shenanigans and flamewars) I get my partner to unplug the wire between the modem and the router and take it out of the house. I've been thinking about the issues raised and hesitating to post because I don't have the energy to make that perfect post. You've convinced me to give myself permission to do what I can, post it under lock, and then expand on the thoughts in comments.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-04 12:55 am (UTC)I usually deal with my anxiety by talking to my girlfriend and immersing myself in books, but... when I'm emotionally involved in something, I make it hard for myself to walk away. So if I get to the point of walking away, I really, really mean it -- it isn't a 'I'm in slight discomfort', it's 'total meltdown'.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-04 05:10 am (UTC)*hugs*
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-04 01:06 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 03:45 am (UTC)(Here via amethystfirefly.)
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 09:04 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 03:47 am (UTC)I can't tell you how many times that I have seen people on the internet get into petty little flamewars because someone wouldn't just respect someone's space. SUre, it may be a journal, it may be online, and, in some cases, it may be public. But it is still someone's personal thoughts and their journal.
I tend to treat my journal like my home. I would like all my subscribers to be comfortable there and would prefer that commenters keep it civil in discussion, but there is always that chance that one won't behave themselves - much like a drunken slob that just shows up to the party. I worry about that chance, because I do have things to talk about - things that I think are important, but have become so afraid of offending someone - and that one being so offended that they become hostile - that I just don't. I hate living in that fear but seeing as it has happened in other places and with other people - people that I care about - I continue to live with it.
So, thank you. Thank you for posting this up. It says everything I want to, but just can't bring myself to, because someone might take it the wrong way.
Would you mind if I subscribe to you? I really appreciate what you have said here and I would really like to read you further.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 09:11 am (UTC)I'm really glad that what I said was interesting and helpful to you, and you're welcome to subscribe to my journal if you want to, but this kind of content doesn't come along very often. Normally this journal has stuff to do with writing and fandom. Although, saying that, I have two more 'essays' on ableism online that I want to try to write, and in theory, I should be posting them soon... but still, this kind of content is the exception.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 02:48 pm (UTC)Feel free to say no, as you don't know me from Adam, so to speak, and it is your space, so you have the final say. I will hardly be offended.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 02:52 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 03:02 pm (UTC)You won't find ruckus coming from this direction. It comes with having too much to do and worry about offline that I try not to take the internet as all serious business. ^_^
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 03:14 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 04:44 am (UTC)I think this is a very intelligent post that needed to be made. Because, yes, sometimes people just do not have the spoons or cope or whatever physical or mental resource they need to continue.
I will link it myself, perhaps even memory it I think, because I need to be able to find pearls of wisdom like this.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 09:13 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 04:25 pm (UTC)I agree with you. There is an expectation, particularly among fans who feel strongly about race and gender issues, that everyone is capable of debate on their level. It's not just ableism, though I agree that's a big part of it. It's an intellectual expectation, too.
I do think that when major fail happens, it should be brought to the fail-er's attention, but this idea that a person isn't entitled to ignore, freeze or delete comments in their own journal...that I have issues with. One's journal is one's own space: "my house, my rules" should apply. And everyone should be able to say "I need some distance, I can't deal with this right now."
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 05:41 pm (UTC)When I wrote this, I wanted to think specifically about people with issues wanting to withdraw for their health, but I agree with you that everyone should have the right to define what is allowed in their own space -- and also I think that even if people don't have pre-existing health issues, they might need to withdraw from something for their health. I've been very sorry for some people who've committed even major fails, because they aren't "allowed" to withdraw. Trying to protect their space just draws more vitriol -- how dare they have feelings and need space?! I hope to god none of them have the reaction to animosity that I do, because under that amount of pressure, I wouldn't be able to handle it at all. Just imagining it frightens me!
I didn't just mean this to apply to race and gender issues, though. The amount of harassment I get from a certain guy who just doesn't agree with my taste in books is ridiculous, and he feels I owe him a reply and that I'm rude if I say that I haven't got the energy to engage with him again.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 06:12 pm (UTC)I'd take it a step further: because none of us can tell what's behind the words that are posted, how can anyone know whether a person needs to withdraw for their own health, or just can't be bothered to engage? Or anything on the spectrum in between. So shouldn't basic humanity dictate that we don't ask, just respect a person's desire to withdraw? It's not like it stops the discourse; that goes on via metafandom and similar.
I didn't just mean this to apply to race and gender issues, though.
Neither did I - it's just uppermost in my mind right now because fandom is currently on that topic :)
The amount of harassment I get from a certain guy who just doesn't agree with my taste in books is ridiculous, and he feels I owe him a reply and that I'm rude if I say that I haven't got the energy to engage with him again.
In your own journal? Ban him. Elsewhere? Just don't engage with him at all. Ever. There's a certain type of man who is convinced that he deserves whatever it is he wants from a woman for no reason other than he wants it. Whether it's a comment or sexual favours, the attitude is coming from the same place. If it's remotely feasible, the answer is to ignore his existence. If that doesn't work...well, normally I'd recommend public humiliation, but you don't seem the type of person who would want to do that.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 06:39 pm (UTC)(Also, I know it's akin to the tone argument, but by a certain point, I don't think a large number of people yelling at someone is actually going to get them to learn anything, so "forcing" them to stay to be yelled at isn't going to work.)
Okay! I was just checking.
Elsewhere. Yeah, I've stopped engaging entirely recently. At first, I gave him the benefit of the doubt because he was quite kind in other ways -- tracked down a rare book I wanted and such things -- but I no longer even try; the kindnesses just feel like manipulations. It's not as though he listens to me when I do respond, he just feels I owe him it. And it's nothing I can show to the site admin and say 'this is harassment', because it isn't, really, until he does it all the time...
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-05 11:45 pm (UTC)Having begun/engaged in a discussion does not mean you owe people a continuation of that discussion.
I really get annoyed when people act like my presence in a shared space (physical or virtual) entitles them to interaction with me, obligates me to interaction with them. It doesn't.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-06 01:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-06 05:45 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-06 01:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-06 07:12 pm (UTC)I was linked to this by someone else, and I have to say you've made some very good points- and it will be something I'll try to look out for more than I have now in the future when I get into discussions or arguments with others online.
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-07 12:00 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-07 02:05 am (UTC)It's your space. You should have the final say what happens in it, and anyone who doesn't like it can suck it up and go elsewhere. I look at it like my living room. I will invite people in, but if they get out of hand, I don't care where they go, as long as it's not MY space.
*hugs* <3
(no subject)
Date: 2010-07-07 11:34 am (UTC)Thanks. ♥